Tonight is the first and only scheduled Vice Presidential Candidate debate for the 2016 U.S. Presidential Election cycle. Meeting on the stage will be the Republican VP candidate, Gov. Mike Pence, and the Democratic VP candidate, Sen. Tim Kaine. I’ll live blog this evening if there is anything of particular note that leaps out at me, but here is what I expect:
- Remember, we are not voting for VPs… we are voting for the people at the top of the ticket. For these parties, those people are Donald Trump (R) and Sec. of State Hillary Clinton (D). While the VPs may come off as more likeable or informed than the top of the ticket, who cares? When you vote, you’re voting for the Presidential Candidate. Other than needing to break ties in the Senate or take over if the President is unable to execute their duties, there isn’t much of a bar the VP candidates have to cross.
- That said, expect the VP Candidates each to attach the top of the ticket of the other party. If they’re smart politicians, they will always take the fight to the top of the other party’s ticket. Nobody really cares about the VP candidates scoring points against one another; what matters is a bruising of the other party’s Presidential Candidate.
- From a scientist’s perspective, the Republicans are a mess this year and the Democrats are generally in good shape. By that, I mean that the policies expressed by the Republicans regarding issues where science is a leading player (e.g. whether or not to act on Climate Change, how to shape the Energy Economy) are largely unaligned or anti-aligned with the best science; the Democrats are generally aligned well this year, though it’s never perfect. Pence has a history of expressing a misunderstanding of the fundamentals of biology, which underpins all of the successful medical procedures known to our species and our total understanding of the biological world. He’s often advocated for watering down science by introducing one branch of one religion’s beliefs into the science classroom. Kaine has little such nonsense in his past statements. Watch for Pence to be sticking to personal or party ideologies on issues where science is a leading component of the issue: the environment, energy, and climate policy. Democrats have their anti-science demons, too: watch for Kaine to make missteps on food policy, for instance.
With that in mind, let’s relax until the event begins at 9pm US Eastern Time.
19:15
The fact-checkers are going to be fighting a war on two fronts: streams of nonsense from the VP candidates, and the usual flood of nonsense from Donald Trump in parallel.
It appears we'll have to be monitoring @realDonaldTrump's Twitter feed tonight. The GOP nominee has said he'll be live tweeting. pic.twitter.com/aEysAUtBrk
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
19:57
Amen to this!
Americans Currently Changing Channel To Favorite Echo Chamber For VP Debate Coverage #VPDebate
— Onion Politics (@OnionPolitics) October 5, 2016
19:59
OK, the debate is nearly upon us! I’ll keep this light tonight.
20:09
Pence, in his response to what makes him the VP to step in should the President be compromised, mentions the “War on Coal.” No such thing. Coal has been challenged mostly by having to compete against cheap natural gas… coal has been losing the economic fight for dominance of the energy market. Pence brings Republican anti-science talking points to his intro.
20:10
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence said there have been more taxes during Obama administration, but that’s not the whole story: https://t.co/nygrtafoQf pic.twitter.com/4Q4tcLQgyu
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:11
The #VPDebate with Sen. Tim Kaine and Gov. Mike Pence is underway. Follow our live fact-check here: https://t.co/lYkBVnvxeZ pic.twitter.com/DnS9JMGhCL
— NPR (@NPR) October 5, 2016
20:12
Pence seems more uncomforable being the attack dog than does Kaine. Unexpected. Every time Pence has to make an attack, he pauses, glances away, and then finally gets into it.
20:13
The interruptions have begun! That didn’t take long.
Question: is it “mansplaining” if two men explain over each other? Whatever. Keep to your time, kids.
20:15
I can’t follow this. They are just talking over each other. It’s a mess. Moderator has lost control.
20:16
LIVE FACT-CHECK: True that the Clinton Foundation took foreign government $$ while Clinton was secretary of state. https://t.co/YJzNVHsPQe pic.twitter.com/7QF0hzgMBC
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:17
Pence brings up fake “war on coal” again. Repeating Republican talking points. Clearly meant to appeal to Virginia voters. Except the “war on coal” is just “market competition between coal and natural gas that coal is losing.”
20:19
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Mike Pence claims national debt has nearly doubled under President Obama, Mostly True. https://t.co/O4j4Tl0GEa pic.twitter.com/tCmxRcdQHy
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Kaine exaggerated the impact of New START on Russia's nuclear weapons: https://t.co/iCrYtO3y0D #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
Pence makes faulty comparison on Virginia & Indiana unemployment rates: https://t.co/ex0SwZj780 #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Kaine said the Iran nuclear deal dealt with Iran “without firing a shot.” Mostly True. https://t.co/1hvLG1hLFN pic.twitter.com/eRMXNjCEgb
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:21
Time for tax return talk…
20:22
Pence is trying to run a traditional Republican campaign in this debate. Good luck selling that to Trump.
Also, avoiding the question entirely about Trump and his personal taxes.
20:23
Moderator tries to bring Pence back to the question.
Pence keeps saying “God bless you for it” to Kaine. That’s Christian speak for “Let me shove this knife in between the third and fourth rib and twist.”
Pence: “[Trump] went through a difficult time and used the tax code brilliantly.”
Kaine: “How do you know that? How do you know that?”
20:25
I THOUGHT Pence said the wrong University name at the beginning! Yikes. A real Gary Johnson moment for Pence.
In his opening statement, Gov. Pence thanked the wrong university. More fact checks here: https://t.co/86PH8oXmPB pic.twitter.com/nIxJ8D7B9g
— NPR Politics (@nprpolitics) October 5, 2016
More fact checks:
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Tim Kaine’s claim of 15 million new jobs is cherry-picked. https://t.co/baGjuumsQR pic.twitter.com/UNc3QffrqZ
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Kaine claims that Trump said "wages are too high." He takes Trump quote out of context: https://t.co/dpmfJJZqKr #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
Pence likes to tout his Econ success in Indiana. But many Hoosiers credit his predecessor GOP gov Mitch Daniels. #VPDebate
— Asma Khalid (@asmamk) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Kaine is right. Trump has said he would let states decide minimum wage. https://t.co/NSiW2f0sOc pic.twitter.com/8H9HTdpO6f
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Kaine said Nixon released his tax returns under audit, but Nixon didn’t release them as a candidate https://t.co/fkDgcbxpv2 pic.twitter.com/MwLPMpHxp0
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Kaine loves the Richard Nixon comparison on income taxes, but it is a false comparison: https://t.co/91xGQ1BGmn #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
20:28
Pence did not try to privatize Social Security. That’s an old misleading attack line: https://t.co/ToFOq1IQCM #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
20:29
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence has supported privatization, but Trump has repeatedly said he has no plans to modify SS https://t.co/pmGaOCtdS7 pic.twitter.com/H1eGDFl9XC
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:29
Indeed, Kaine and Pence are running verbally over the moderator left and right.
Nation's Women Relating Fully To Elaine Quijano Right Now #VPDebate
— Onion Politics (@OnionPolitics) October 5, 2016
20:31
Pence speaking for himself, not for Trump:
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence has supported privatization, but Trump has repeatedly said he has no plans to modify SS https://t.co/pmGaOCtdS7 pic.twitter.com/H1eGDFl9XC
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:32
Kaine said Trump will "raise taxes on middle class." But Trump's plan cuts taxes for all income groups: https://t.co/HIhX7WWMQx #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Virginia did fix a loophole in background checks for guns while Kaine was governor. https://t.co/lGDi2aI8yE pic.twitter.com/7Wtrp9E2gD
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:34
Pence denies that humans are “implicitly biased,” but the evidence says that every human has biases that they may not even be consciously aware of. Race-based (social group) biases are among them. Police are no more immune to that than others. Police do noble work, but like all members of the human family they have flaws, and being aware of those flaws and how they might affect professional choices is just part of being a responsible professional.
Again, Pence dismissing science of bias to make an appeal to emotion.
20:36
On bias in policing:
LIVE FACT-CHECK: True that blacks more likely to be arrested, get longer sentences https://t.co/t41skaAUn9 pic.twitter.com/xXaOWShbaG
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
On other subjects:
Kaine says 15 million jobs were created under Obama. Actually, it's 10.5M, as we wrote: https://t.co/jtRUhTA1Tu #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
20:38
Pence: 'The Country Is Terrible Except For Racism, Which Is Doing Great' #VPDebate
— Onion Politics (@OnionPolitics) October 5, 2016
20:39
Indiana Residents Shocked To Hear How Well-Off They Are #VPDebate
— Onion Politics (@OnionPolitics) October 5, 2016
20:40
Pence praises stop-and-frisk. Here's our story on how and why it was unconstitutionally applied in NYC: https://t.co/ZwhuUz0wPp #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
20:41
And what about that claim that former President Clinton criticizing the current national health care framework?
But that's not the whole story of what former president Clinton said. More context here: https://t.co/ZEvM9HQdwk pic.twitter.com/dPoqU4pgz3
— NPR Politics (@nprpolitics) October 5, 2016
20:42
Fact checking:
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Mostly True, however, that Clinton/Kaine are for sanctuary cities:https://t.co/EszG5HUnLk pic.twitter.com/aHavbwWvdJ
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Wrong to say Clinton-Kaine are for open borders. False. https://t.co/aYX7JEBN6B pic.twitter.com/aw222qmYHJ
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Kaine’s claim of a mass deportation force is misleading. Half True. https://t.co/GpYOPZtbXq pic.twitter.com/Eq4m0TAsrc
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:45
Tonight, it’s clear that the Clinton campaign is really taking advantage of the fact that Trump cannot stop talking, and puts his foot in his mouth so much he’s just handing material to the opposition.
Pence: 'Again, Senator, Do Not Go So Low As To Bring Up What Donald Trump Has Said' #VPDebate
— Onion Politics (@OnionPolitics) October 5, 2016
20:48
I think Kaine just took the rhetoric over the top with the claim that “Trump has a personal Mt. Rushmore” of the world’s worst dictators.
20:49
Pence on immigration mentions not only building a wall, but also underground and in the air #VPDebate
— Asma Khalid (@asmamk) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Trump called the military “a disaster,” Kaine says. Mostly True. https://t.co/IspdkKCcOS pic.twitter.com/wineiZnH7k
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
20:51
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Kaine’s claim about Trump advocating a more nuclear world is murkier than Kaine let on. https://t.co/MWmyEZG2mc pic.twitter.com/T6aoJrIkYe
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Fact Check: Donald Trump has broken with the Republican Party platform with his promise to leave Medicare unchanged. https://t.co/nfmm6HC9Fw pic.twitter.com/RG1xFYKJpX
— NYT Politics (@nytpolitics) October 5, 2016
On immigration, Mike Pence says Trump's priority would be to "remove criminal aliens" https://t.co/2YFXnXzsO1 #VPDebate 🔓
— The Wall Street Journal (@WSJ) October 5, 2016
20:52
Oof. Harsh but true:
A smart pollster would do a Republican oversample and ask if they wish it was Pence, not Trump, at top of ticket. #VPDebate
— Ryan J. Rusak (@rjrusak) October 5, 2016
20:53
Pence was right: Trump said criminal aliens will all be gone, not all living here illegally: https://t.co/3OfipVL9P8 #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence said Clinton and Kaine want to increase the number of Syrian refugees by 550 percent: https://t.co/SX1mGNLkLB pic.twitter.com/EZn6GHeSuG
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Pence then says that his plan to block Syrian refugees because Syrian terrorists have infiltrated the U.S. is supported by the following evidence, according to him: “Syrians have been involved in terror-related activities in Germany.” Who now what?
So much for “innocent until proven guilty.”
20:55
Oh, Kaine… don’t misuse the word “Cyber”. You will sound like such a Donald Trump if you do that. C’mon man. Get your shit together.
20:57
If only Mike Pence could teach Donald Trump to use the word “cyber” as correctly as he does.
Moderator getting talked over by Pence and Kaine again. So awkward.
20:58
Kaine is right that Trump said NATO is obsolete, but wrong that Trump said "we should get rid" of it. Trump on NATO: https://t.co/Pu14fXqSu0
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
"I stand by that decision" – Pence says referencing his decision to bar Syrian refugees from Indiana #VPDebate
— Asma Khalid (@asmamk) October 5, 2016
21:00
VP debate: “Pence’s message: We need a change. Kaine’s message: Trump is scary. They might both be right:” @SMU poly sci prof Matthew Wilson
— SMU (@SMU) October 5, 2016
21:01
Kaine attacks Trump and defends Clinton; Pence attacks Clinton but doesn’t defend Trump much.
— Ramesh Ponnuru (@RameshPonnuru) October 5, 2016
21:02
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence's claim about the size of the Navy has been around (and misleading) since 2012 https://t.co/jZfvUdPEoJ pic.twitter.com/TUxHnMOduU
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
21:03
“The question was about Aleppo,” says the moderator.
Sigh. I don’t think they’re listening to you anymore. I am so sorry.
21:05
“How would those safe zones work?” the moderator asks.
Either candidate: avoid talking about safe zones, then engage by saying that they would be made safe. Yikes.
21:06
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence claim that Obama pulled back on missile defense shield in deference to Russia is Half True. https://t.co/lyzlpA1n4L pic.twitter.com/XQa1qIHWtz
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
And this lovely sexist tweet, retweeted by Trump, from “Team Trump” and attributed to Pence. Thanks for making our gender look classy, boys:
We need STRONG, BROAD-SHOULDERED leadership like @mike_pence & @realDonaldTrump in the White House! #VPDebate #BigLeagueTruth pic.twitter.com/IXXxZZYhy9
— Team Trump (Text TRUMP to 88022) (@TeamTrump) October 5, 2016
21:08
… and on Iran:
In this back-and-forth over Iran, experts tend to side with Kaine over Pence. Here's why. https://t.co/D5zWNZpuOv
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
21:10
Elaine Quijano Can't Wait To Scream Once Mic Turned Off #VPDebate
— Onion Politics (@OnionPolitics) October 5, 2016
The person who lost most tonight was no person at all, but the decorum expected for “debate” participants. The moderator did the best she could, short of cutting mics. Any moderator would have been steamrolled… but Quijano should definitely be pissed at both of these folks.
21:12
A fact check on claims by the Trump ticket on “Obamacare”:
#FactCheck Trump’s plan calls for repealing Obamacare & replacing it with health savings accounts. https://t.co/21oQ28Rql8 #VPDebate pic.twitter.com/VcbiMCDxnM
— NPR Politics (@nprpolitics) October 5, 2016
21:14
Pence had Virginia with “War on Coal,” but Trump lost Virginia by calling is a “failed state” on twitter:
ICYMI: PENCE: I RAN A STATE THAT WORKED; KAINE RAN A STATE THAT FAILED. https://t.co/XuWaueNkH0
— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) October 5, 2016
Yikes.
21:16
So, what DID they say about Obama and Putin? A fact-check:
What Mike Pence said about Barack Obama and Vladimir Putin. pic.twitter.com/s5cHlJ0rOO
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Kaine is right: Trump said Putin is "a leader, far more than our president has been a leader." Pence is spinning. https://t.co/zY4P3Thbt9
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
21:17
A look at Pence’s “$400 million ransom paid to Iran” claim:
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence wrong to level $400 million payment to Iran as “ransom.” Read why. https://t.co/majc3Tqh5r pic.twitter.com/ZAgpg7oSl7
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Pence again brings up the $400M "ransom" payment to Iran. Details on the Iran payment here: https://t.co/ZTbdfUqbeQ #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
21:18
Checking Pence and Trump on Clinton Foundation claims:
Fact Check: Clinton Foundation getting foreign donations https://t.co/IL90hMm5CM pic.twitter.com/b5CUUUDJ6A
— NYT Politics (@nytpolitics) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Kaine’s claim about Clinton Foundation impact on HIV/AIDS drugs is True. More than 11M helped. https://t.co/wpmNvfZVUq pic.twitter.com/1wxNOsEVEq
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Wow. Kaine EVISCERATING Trump Foundation by comparing it to Clinton Foundation.
WAIT?! This question was supposed to be about North Korea? 🙂
Pence said 10% of Clinton Foundation funds goes to charity. That's wrong: https://t.co/t1c0o2Pj7K #VPDebate
— FactCheck.org (@factcheckdotorg) October 5, 2016
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Pence claim that only 10 percent of Clinton Foundation money goes to aid is wrong. https://t.co/7d0MrFiqmy pic.twitter.com/nYX4Vxt91e
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Wow. Pence jumped off a bridge without a bungee cord on this topic.
21:24
Asked about a time when religious faith was tested by a policy issue:
- Kaine: as a Catholic, does not believe personally in death penalty. But, was Governor of a state with death penalty. In the U.S., personal religious beliefs should not conflict with upholding the law. Did not personally support this, but upheld the law as was his duty. “Important that those of us who have deep faith lives can’t substitute our views for others in society.”
- Pence: also grew up with a deep faith tradition. Talks about sanctity of life, ties this to Biblical text about “before you were born I knew you.” Pence talks about expanding alternatives in Indiana to abortion. Not really a challenge to his faith so far. How is passing alternatives to something that makes you uncomfortable a challenge to your faith, and not just forcing your faith on society? Doesn’t matter whether you support abortion or not – this is not a good example of “Acting in the public good to execute the office thought the action conflicts with my faith.”
Kaine challenges Pence on this – mandating the tenets of your faith for those who do not subscribe to it.
This was prescient:
Report: Pence Has 10 Minutes Left To Mention Abortion #VPDebate
— Onion Politics (@OnionPolitics) October 5, 2016
Fact-checks on this issue:
A good primer on Hillary Clinton's abortion position. https://t.co/7cIaH8BQGZ pic.twitter.com/zV73utlrkB
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
and then this:
LIVE FACT-CHECK: Kaine right Trump discussed punishing women who choose abortion, but he later clarified his remarks https://t.co/BxsErr7pcn pic.twitter.com/ZkAq5un24x
— PolitiFact (@PolitiFact) October 5, 2016
Whew, boy. Then there was this from Pence:
"You whipped out that Mexican thing again."
— Laura Helmuth (@laurahelmuth) October 5, 2016
21:32
Last question: “It has been a divisive campaign. How will you unite the people who voted against you?”
Really? A divisive campaign. No.
- Kaine: Republicans in government regard and respect Hillary Clinton. Talks about her bi-partisan efforts. So… just highlights her bi-partisan history.
- Pence: talks about a weak America under “Obama and Clinton”, crippled by taxes, a war on coal, and bad trade deals. Best way to bring people together: change in D.C. Talks about his own service in D.C. – doesn’t talk about Trump at all. Finally talks about Trump when he says “Trump’s entire career has been about ‘building’.” America will unite when Trump changes America.